Gatsby ch. 6-8 outer circle

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Comments

Daria said…
While Gatsby has been in love with Daisy since they met (evidence of him first falling in love with her on my 188), has Daisy fallen out of their love? Is that something that can happen? Do you think that she had ever truly loved him or was she just caught up in the young romance? And if she did love him, has she loved him ever since?
Anonymous said…
To answer Vince's third question, I think the color of the car represents a contrast. Yellow is usually perceived joyously and innocently, but in this case, the car killed someone. The car being yellow itself stands out as well, which can also represent the fear of Gatsby or Daisy being caught as it wouldn't be hard to trace the car back to Gatsby. Nick points this out on page 155, "'You ought to go away,' I said. 'It's pretty certain they'll trace your car.'"
Anonymous said…
I think that Daisy isn't a very deep person, and often tends to sway to the more shallow side. A lot of people tend to fall in love with the idea of a person rather than the actual person themselves, or fall in love with the memories of that person. Of course somebody can fall out of love, it happens all the time. As an adult, you most likely will not be in love with the same person that you were in love with at age 18. I think that Daisy maybe once loved Gatsby, and possibly fell out of love with him as well. I think she now loves the excitement of his life and how much better Gatsby treats her than Tom, but it may be more of an artificial love than anything.
Anonymous said…
I think Daisy loves the idea of him and wants to prove a point. On page 123 it says, " 'You know I love you, [Daisy to Gatsby]' she murmured. 'You forget there's a lady present,' said Jordan... 'I don't care!' cried Daisy" (Fitzgerald 123). It almost seems like she's showing off her love to everyone else. It feels like she wants to convince herself she is happy without Tom and that she's allowed to do crazy things.
Anonymous said…
I agree with Yashika, I think that when people are trying to convince themselves of something, they try even harder to convince other people of that same fact. They want other people to believe them so they can believe themselves.
Anonymous said…
I definitely agree with Corinne. I think both Gatsby and Daisy are in love with the idea of each other, but five years leads to a lot of significant changes in a person. They do not truly know each other anymore - they both know only a past version of the other, and are almost living in a fantasy. It's fun in the moment, thinking they've reignited an old flame, but in the end they will only end up disappointed.
Anonymous said…
I would not use the words "fallen out of their love" but more that Daisy realizes that she does still love Tom or at least respects him. Once she has that realization, I would argue that she re-evaluates the situation. Gatsby was wanting her to communicate that she never loved Tom but she knew that wasn't the truth. "'Oh, you want too much!' she cried to Gatsby. 'I love you now-isn't that enough? I can't help what's past.' She began to sob helplessly. 'I did love him once-but I loved you too'" (Fitzgerald 132).
Anonymous said…
To answer Colin's first question, I believe that Tom's statement illustrates his misconception of Daisy's true nature. He must have believed that Daisy didn't "run around too much," but she obviously had. It seems that Tom doesn't know Daisy quite as well as he thinks he does. He is also quite hypocritical, as he has an affair but is offended when Daisy has one as well. It seems that Tom has become quite insecure about his marriage, now that Gatsby is becoming close to Daisy.
Anonymous said…
I definitely agree with the idea that Tom is a hypocrite. He is easily one of the most defensive characters in the book and I think his racism and sexism represents his hypocritical nature. He is always pointing out flaws in others to lift himself up and make himself better. I find it interesting how initially he isn't shocked or worried about the crash, saying "'Wreck!' sasid Tom. 'That's good. Wilson'll have a little business at last'" (page 145). Even after finding out it was a bad wreck, he still maintains this tone: "'There's some bad trouble here,' said Tom excitedly." It's only when he realizes that it was Myrtle that was hit that his attitude changes: "Presently Tom lifted his head with a jerk and after staring around the garage with glazed eyes addressed a mumbled incoherent remark to the policeman" (page 146). Tom is a character who likes to be on the outside looking in, but the second he is put into a situation, he becomes aggressive and shocked.
Anonymous said…
I agree with you, Corinne. I think that Daisy seems to love the people that can give her a comfortable life. Gatsby makes her believe he has more money than he does when he first met her because "he had deliberated given Daisy a sense of security" (187). When Gatsby left, Daisy marries Tom because she wants to go into her future with certainty. Although there is more to it, I think that Gatsby's money is partly why Daisy found herself going back to him for a while. Overall, I think she is confused, because although she likes both men, she wants to be with the one that will provide the most certainty. After the accident, Tom and Daisy seem pretty comfortable together, not seemingly worried about what just happened: "...and yet they weren't unhappy either. There was an unmistakable air of natural intimacy about the picture, and anybody would have said that they were conspiring together" (183). Both of them like the comfort that the other gives, not caring much about the other people around them. Generally, they both seem like simple people with simple minds and simple/easy solutions.
Anonymous said…
Answering Paige's question - The day after the car accident, Nick compliments Gatsby. He then comments, “I’ve always been glad I said that. It was the only compliment I ever gave him, because I disapproved of him from beginning to end” (Fitzgerald 154). How can Nick seem to think highly of and yet find his actions unacceptable?

I think Nick found some sort of wisdom in Gatsby. Yes he might not be a good person, but Gatsby had spent his whole life in love. He organized countless parties to see Daisy again, and everything he's done has been for Daisy. He's never been ashamed to do so, and I think Nick finds that admirable and respects that. Nick said "I disapproved of him from beginning to end" (Fitzgerald 154) because he couldn't relate to him and his actions. Nick doesn't have enough experience with love to realize the obsession behind it, but Gatsby taught him that there are many darker shades to love, and that scared Nick into disapproving him. Perhaps so he can believe love can be good.
Anonymous said…
I think Nick complimented Gatsby because of the change in his character. Gatsby has followed a plan in order to reunite with Daisy, but had begun to stray from that plan. I think Nick realized that Gatsby was willing to change, and saw it in a positive light. Gatsby became less reclusive once he met Daisy again, and started to take more risks.
Anonymous said…
To maybe change up the conversation and provide something to talk about, here's a question I had: How does Daisy's love/loyalty define Tom and Gatsby? Why are they both so defensive when it comes to her? (In my book, their argument is from 164-166)
Anonymous said…
In response to Cole's question: I really do believe that Daisy is attracted to the idea of Gatsby. She knew him once before, and was in love with him then. But she doesn't seem to realize how much he's changed since the last time they spoke. I think the prospect of money attracts her (as seen on my page 92, "'They're such beautiful shirts,' she sobbed, her voice muffled in the thick folds, 'It makes me sad because I've never seen such - such beautiful shirts before.'"), because she realizes that she could be living a luxurious life with Gatsby. But she's also attracted to the idea of him that she has - the "penniless young man" he was when she first loved him is still ingrained in her mind, so she's imagining the past, more innocent version of him while enjoying the benefits of the present version.
Anonymous said…
I had another question as well. One thing that caught my attention during the chapter was when the gardener came to the foot of the steps and said, "'I'm going to drain the pool today, Mr. Gatsby. Leaves'll start falling pretty soon, and then there's always trouble with the pipes'" (pg 153). What does the pool symbolize?
Anonymous said…
Going off of what Mrs. Ackerman brought up, I think that moment was Daisy giving up on Gatsby. I believe her ripping up the letter was symbolic of her removing Gatsby from her life, and moving on. Micah mentioned that Daisy married Tom because he was actually present in her life. I agree with that statement. I think Daisy had grown tired of waiting and being lonely, so she gave up on Gatsby and went with Tom instead.
Anonymous said…
I agree with Yashika because I believe that the whole relationship dynamic between them is a friendship that is not entirely pure but reciprocated. Nick may not approve of everything Gatsby does but at the end of the day, they still found good company and friendship in each other. I also agree with Yashika's point of Nick not relating to Gatsby. Throughout most of the story, Nick kind of represents the reader's perspective, so I believe that his perspective is shared by the reader's to some degree. We may not agree with everything Gatsby does but we can't necessarily hate him either. Throughout the book, they are shown to be somewhat close friends but there's always this feeling of distance between them of sort. "I thanked him for his hospitality. We were always thanking him for that--I and the others" (Page 162). This whole line feels sort of informal.
Anonymous said…
This is just something I was thinking about, but I believe the title of the book is pretty ironic. It kind of makes fun of how Gatsby doesn't turn out so "great." While some might see Gatsby as an egotistical man with little to no concern about anyone but himself, I think that he is simply a man in love. He isn’t quite the god everyone made him out to be in the book, so no, I wouldn’t say Gatsby is “great” as the title suguests. It makes him sound like someone who is above everyone else, and while he is rich, I think that when a reader really looks at him, he is just a nromal person with a generally normal sized ego and a passion for someone. After meeting him, Nick realizes Gatsby isn’t some amazing person above everyone else, but “...he had become simply the proprietor of an elaborate roadhouse next door” (81). Gatsby doesn’t live up to the fantastical rumors about him; he is just a normal guy. When he was younger, Gatsby became a different person so that he might go out and live the American dream. “So he invented just the sort of Jay Gatsby that a seventeen-year-old boy would be likely to invent, and to his conception he was faithful to the end” (124). Although this could be interpreted as someone who thinks too highly of himself, I believe it is just a boy trying to follow his dreams. There is nothing extraordinary about it, but something many Americans and young people can relate to. When you really look at him, Gatsby isn't anything "great." He's just a normal guy with big dreams and a restless passion for someone he can't have.
Anonymous said…
I had a question regarding Chapter 7. What is the significance of the weather being so unbearably hot? How does the weather create conflict?
Anonymous said…
Answering Wyatt's question, I think that when things start to heat up, that's an expression people use when talking about tension and anger. Calmness is associated with cool colors and cold, while anger and tension is almost always associated with more warm colors and weather.
Anonymous said…
Answering Campbell's question, I think the pool represents all of Gatsby's lost time. I think it is ironic how the one time he uses the pool, he is killed in it (204). It's like when he was too late for Daisy and he lost her. He finally uses the pool that he hadn't used all summer, and that's the last thing he does.
Anonymous said…
Answering Katy's question - How does Nick's point of view impact the story and our perceptions of characters and conflicts?

I think Nick's point of view causes the reader to believe in all his values and gives us a biased view on the story. He says a character is bad, we believe he is bad, he says a character is complicated, then we don't come to a conclusion about whether they are good or bad. This is seen in the descriptions of Jordan, "The younger of the two was a stranger to me. She was extended full length at her end of the divan, completely motionless and with her chin raised a little as if she were balancing something on it which was quite likely to fall" (Fitzgerald 13). This makes Jordan seem arrogant, but later on, Nicks says, "Her grey sun-strained eyes stared straight ahead, but she had deliberately shifted our relations, and for a moment I thought I loved her" (Fitzgerald 63). He notes her eyes rather than her stature, making her seem human rather than an object. This is described once he starts falling in love with her, and this causes his and the reader's perspective of Jordan to change into a positive understanding of the character.
Anonymous said…
I have a question of my own -
How does Gatsby's death change the reader's perception of him and his character arc?
Anonymous said…
In response to Wyatt's question on the significance of the weather in chapter 7, I think it shows the rising tensions among characters. It leaves people flustered and unhappy, because they are all miserable with the heat. I think that symbolizes the conflict between the characters coming to a head, and becoming unbearable so they will all have to confront one another. In the hotel suite, on my page 129, Tom is beginning to interrogate Gatsby on his past, rather aggressively, "'Wait a minute,' snapped Tom, 'I want to ask Mr. Gatsby one more question.' 'Go on,' Gatsby said politely. 'What kind of a row are you trying to cause in my house anyhow?'" The weather has become too much to handle as they race to open the windows in the hotel suit, just as the conflict between Gatsby and Tom has become overwhelming also, so Tom decides to confront Gatsby.
Anonymous said…
Vince: What do you think the color of the car signifies?
Ryan: Although the car may represent wealth and power since most cars at this time are black. The color yellow in chapter 7 however represents what a coward Daisy is due to the fact that yellow is often associated with a lack of confidence. For example the word yellow-belly is defined as someone who is cowardly according to Merriam Webster. Therefore, Fitzgerald is trying to make the point that cowardness is not extirpated when one has wealth and power.

Paige: What does the heat described in Chapter 7 symbolize?
Ryan: First of all it is important to remember how humid New York is especially in the summer due to the high amount of water in the area. Thus, one would feel very claustrophobic due to how hot and thick the air would be. With this sudden change of weather in the story, it symbolizes how drastically a place of peace and contentment can change to an oppressive, inescapable prison. "The relentless beating heat was beginning to confuse me." (156) "Tom pushed the unfamiliar gears tentatively and
we shot off into the oppressive heat leaving them out of sight behind." (153) From these quotes it is obvious that the characters are struggling in this heat and feel as if they are almost being attacked.

Kat: Gatsby mentions to Nick that he hasn’t used the pool all summer, what is the significance of him using the pool when his carefully built dream falls apart?
Ryan: "Gatsby shouldered the mattress and started for the pool. Once he stopped and shifted it a little, and the chauffeur
asked him if he needed help, but he shook his head and in a moment disappeared among the yellowing trees." (202) From this quote one would visualize Gatsby is relaxed and at a peace as he is described as "disappearing among the yellowing trees" as he rests on a floaty in a tranquil pool in silence. This signifies that Gatsby has released himself from his dream of having Daisy back again as he realizes that it is no longer in his hands. All he can do now is wait to see if she calls. Thus, this scene tells us that Gatsby is finally at peace and is no longer worried about whether Daisy will choose him over Tom. The drama is over between Gatsby, Daisy, and Tom.
Anonymous said…
Katy brings up an interesting point and question, "What is the significance of Nick using the world holocaust to refer to Gatsby and Wilson´s deaths? Especially considering that within the novel, WW2 had not occurred yet." Today when we think of the world Holocaust, we think of WW2. The other definition of holocaust is destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war. I find Fitzgerald's use of the word interesting. In total, only three people were killed which is not usually described as a "mass scale."
Anonymous said…
To answer Julia Blok's question about how society is similar to what it was back in the 20's, I would say that in both societies, people are run primarily on money and jealousy. It seems that ever since Modernism arose, this became the new normal. I'm not saying that the idea of the American Dream is to be full of jealousy, but the American Dream was to begin a new life and start working a career. When people do that, jealousy does begin to arise. It's basically all about who can make the most money, and when one doesn't accomplish what they hope to achieve in regards to salary, they become jealous of others. This is similar to Tom and Gatsby, and the way that Daisy is drawn to the person with more money.
Anonymous said…
To answer Daria's question regarding Daisy's love and how it defines Tom and Gatsby, I think that especially in this time period, it was crucial for a man to be a husband or at least in a relationship. For Tom, Daisy's loyalty meant that he was able to do whatever he wanted with her without a sense of doubt that she was going to leave. This loyalty to Tom allowed him to become more confident in himself and egotistical, explaining why he is so angry and volatile. For Gatsby, her loyalty, despite the fact that he was in love with an old version of her, made Gatsby cling on to something that he truly didn't have. As Fitzgerald explains, "He hadn't once ceased looking at Daisy, and I think he revalued everything in his house according to the measure of response it drew from her well-loved eyes" (Fitzgerald 91). Gatsby clinged onto a fake love that he had for Daisy so much that he was willing to change almost everything to her liking. Daisy's loyalty to Gatsby made him become careless.
Anonymous said…
Answering Katy's question, "How is Tom's reaction to Daisy's affair different from Daisy's reaction to Tom's affair? Why is this the case?"

First of all, Daisy is meak, and have unfortunately learned to stop talking and speaking her opinion because of the implied abuse she has dealt with from Tom. At this point, everyone knows about Tom's affair and nobody says anything, including Daisy. Because of this absent reaction, Tom thinks that it is ok to continue to do.

In the other case with Daisy's affair, Tom is so used to Daisy's loyalty as sticking with him even throughout his affair. "You're crazy!" he exposed. "I can't speak about what happened five years ako because I didn't know Daisy then-- and I'll be damned if I see how you got within a mile of her unless your brought the groceries to the back door. But all of the rest of that's a God Damned lie. Daisy loved me when she married me and she loves me know" (Fitzgerald 131). We as readers, for a fact, know Daisy still loved Gatsby more than Tom. Tom doesn't understand that and he explodes when he learns that Daisy's loyalty to him was a lie and she was in fact loyal to Gatsby instead.